But WHO is running?
Since Nadir Ahmed (NA) is not able to face Sam Shamoun on the level of exchanging carefully reasoned arguments, he tries everything to make him "look bad". One favorite charge by NA is that Sam Shamoun is allegedly "running away", e.g. running away from debating him; see his article "Answering Islam on the run!" which is linked and responded to in our rebuttal Hunter or Hunted? Additionally, in NA's series of follow-up articles, he claims that Sam was supposedly even running out of a restaurant because he could not face Nadir Ahmed's powerful arguments. In particular, NA claims:
... The reason why I want this shameless chickenhearted coward to debate me on preservation of the Quran is very simple: Shameless Shamoun met me in a restraunt and we had this debate, within minutes, I refuted his lies and deception to the point that Shameless Shamoun could not answer! So what did he do? The answer will shock you J Shameless Shamoun started yelling and screaming like a baby, then got his silly articles together and RAN OUT OF THE RESTRAUNT. I followed him out into parking lot, but Shamoun would not come back in the restraunt and debate me. That was the LAST TIME I ever saw Shameless Shamoun face to face. So that was the first time he ran from me.(Source: www.examinethetruth.com/RefutingAI/shamounrunning.htm)
The meetings between Sam Shamoun and Nadir Ahmed were not without witnesses. Somebody who was present at these restaurant discussions was rather surprised at NA's claims, and decided to send us his report on the events:
Hello! My name is Guy Viti. I'm a friend of Sam Shamoun and a past acquaintance of Nadir Ahmed. When I first met Nadir, I really believed that he was sincere in discussing the differences between Islam and Christianity, so I went out of my way to introduce him to Sam Shamoun, who not only had a solid grasp of our Christian faith, but of Islam as well. That way Nadir could gain a better understanding of what we believe and we also had an opportunity to see what Nadir had to say about the various writings of Al Tabari, Ibn Masud and other well respected scholars that had positive things to say about Christianity. So, Sam, myself and Nadir began meeting at a restaurant. All were welcome to join us, so there were others who sat in to listen, including my brother-in-law who is a Muslim.
During the discussions, Nadir would often make negative comments about the Christian faith and then the consistant question to Nadir would be, "do you have any credible documentation to support your position?" Oftentimes, Nadir would say that he would be happy to produce the documents upon our next meeting, but never came with either Islamic or Christian documentation to support his position. I can remember the comment my Muslim brother-in-law made after one of the meetings where he said how disappointed he was that Nadir would often come to the meetings unprepared and without any credible documents, but he was impressed with Sam Shamoun because he would have stacks of documents not only from Christian, but Muslim scholars as well. Since most of our discussions were about Christianity and we allowed Nadir to ask as many questions as he liked and even allowed for his negative comments. Sam asked, since Christianity came before Islam and has been around for a lot more years, it is only fair that Nadir prove that Islam is the true way of God. After all, the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Baha'is and many other religions came after Islam, and are also claiming to be the true way, so how is Islam any different. Well, Nadir responded by attacking the holy, godly character of the Apostle Paul and that was where Sam challenged Nadir to be open at our next meeting to discuss the differences between Mohammed and the Apostle Paul. Nadir readily agreed to that and, at our next meeting, when Sam began questioning, in a respectful manner, the character of Mohammed; that Mohammed had sexual relations with a nine year old girl and that Mohammed said it was okay for husbands to beat their wives, Nadir started getting really upset and threatened to walk out of the meeting. I admit we were all very surprised by Nadir's actions, because just a few minutes before that incident he had claimed that the Apostle Paul was a homosexual because he circumcised a grown man. Sam, myself and the others present for that discussion, were acutally more amused by such a statement rather than insulted because we knew that it was just absurd in light of studying the character of the Apostle Paul, so we kindly corrected him. But when the time came to question some of the things that Mohammed said and did, it was then that Nadir threatened that if we didn't change the subject he'd leave. And Nadir went on to say that such a topic, which he had readily agreed to discuss, would only insult people. But we said that we wouldn't be insulted at all by his mis-statements about the Apostle Paul, because we are only to happy to correct him. That was the only time during our meetings that someone threatened to get up and leave. That is why when Sam forwarded to me Nadir's comments that Sam was closed-minded and walked out of our meeting, and was even running from Nadir, I couldn't help but be very surprised.
Sam was only all too willing discuss any topic that Nadir chose. In fact, the first topic that we discussed was science in the Quran and Bible, but then the discussions lead to the question, "Is the Quran the preserved Word of God?", and it was at that meeting that Sam brought quite a bit of Islamic documents pointing out the various copies of the Quran that were lacking certain suras and also writing from the Hadith where Muslim soldiers who had memorized Mohammed's sayings were killed before they could be put on paper, and another Hadith where Aisha said that an animal ate other portions before they could be written down. And then Sam pointed out the four Muslims that Mohammed told all Muslims to go to after his death to learn the Quran and how two of the four disagreed with each other. Nadir responded, again, without providing any Islamic documents to support his position and although Sam was frustrated by Nadir's response, he never walked out of the meeting, nor threatened to. Instead, Sam challenged Nadir to a debate over the preservation of the Quran and is Mohammed a prophet of God. That was the last time, that I ever saw Nadir, because Sam and I came to the agreement that it was a waste of time meeting with Nadir, because he would often share his opinion about what he thought Christians and Muslims believed, but never produced credible documents to support his position. And when Nadir did bring documents, it would be from the atheist website, www.Infidels.com., which surprised both Sam and I, because we wondered why a Muslim, who believes in the existence of God, would be depending on atheists to support his position as opposed to producing Muslim sources to prove his case. Wasn't there any credible Muslim sources to prove his point, especially to disprove Christianity?
Thank you for your time,
Some comments from my side: Obviously, Nadir Ahmed can easily make the wildest accusations against Sam Shamoun. He is free to publish on his website anything he likes, including slurs and lies. The obvious fact, however, is that "getting personal" and trying to heap insults on Sam has become NA's only refuge. This speaks for itself. If Nadir Ahmed had any valid arguments to present, he would simply take Sam Shamoun's papers that are readily available on the web, write a refutation, and publish those refutations on his website. This, however, he is apparently unable to do.
This is my challenge to Nadir Ahmed: Show the world that you actually have arguments, that you are able to present facts and sources with proper documention, i.e. take Sam's papers and write rebuttals to them. So far, I have only seen you whining, making noise, and, in particular, investing enormous efforts in character assassination of Sam Shamoun. I am not impressed.
Personal insults are cheap. Everybody can publish insults. Doing careful research and presenting the results in a scholarly, well-documented way is a whole different thing. Let me get back to your above claim:
... within minutes, I refuted his lies and deception to the point that Shameless Shamoun could not answer! So what did he do? The answer will shock you J Shameless Shamoun started yelling and screaming like a baby, then got his silly articles together and RAN OUT OF THE RESTRAUNT. ...
Isn't this a very reasonable request: Please publish those amazing arguments that Sam Shamoun is absolutely unable to answer. If you were really able to present them in a mere couple of minutes in a restaurant, you can surely write them up in less than a day and publish them on your site. Why then have you for months now done nothing else than publishing personal insults?
Just to make extra sure that there was not another meeting of which Guy didn't know ... I asked both Sam and Guy whether Guy had been present at each one of the meetings between Nadir Ahmed and Sam Shamoun. Both Guy and Sam confirmed this. Guy Viti wrote back in more detail:
Regarding the question: Was I present for all the meetings between Sam and Nadir AT THE RESTAURANT? The answer is yes, because I was the one who mediated between the two, in order to find the right time for us to meet, which I found frustrating. It was my idea for us to meet at Whistler's restaurant and the time had to revolve around my busy schedule, because I was in school and I have a family. Both Nadir and Sam always wanted me present at the meetings, otherwise they would say they wouldn't show up. As if I was to be the witness to everything being said. And Nadir mentioned that the meeting where Sam walked out on him was the last time he met with him, AT THE RESTAURANT. And as I mentioned in the letter, it was after that meeting that Sam and I decided we were wasting our time.
A final remark: Although it is rather obvious who is honest in this issue, and who is making up stories, in the final analysis it is absolutely irrelevant whether or not Sam Shamoun at one time or other ran out of a restaurant. The readers of Nadir Ahmed's and/or our website were not there, and cannot know for certain one way or other. It is simply word against word. What all of the readers can know for sure, however, is whether or not Nadir Ahmed will provide clear written rebuttals to Sam's arguments. That is something that each of us can verify for himself. And NA's response to the above request/challenge will automatically determine the answer to the other question as well.
Responses to Nadir Ahmed
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